王峰十问第25期 | PoS共识机制发明人Sunny King:稳定币的影响被外界过度夸大(中英)

热度: 249984
北京时间9月20日22点,“Mars Finance Global Family”迎来“王峰十问”第二十五期,对话嘉宾是PoS共识机制发明人Sunny King。




对话嘉宾Mars Finance Global Family

Sunny KingPoS机制发明人,被V神称为“唯一一个最具原创精神的数字货币开发者”




Fred Wang:Hi,Good evening everyone,niceI am Fred.welcome to the 25th episode of Ten Questions with Fred Wang. also welcome SunnyKing

王峰:给大家介绍今晚的神秘嘉宾:PoS共识机制发明人Sunny King。关于他的公开照片,只能找到这一张,但与中本聪有些不同,我确定他确实存在,比如他能来到今天“王峰十问”的现场。

Let me introduce our Mystery Guest tonight, the creator of PoS consensus mechanism, Sunny King. About his public photos, I can only find this one. But unlike Satoshi Nakamoto, I am sure he does exist. For instance, he came to today's "Ten questions with Fred Wang".

先来看看Sunny King的个人经历:2011年,成立比特币研究小组,研究比特币替代技术;2012年,首次提出了PoS概念,并发布点点币(PeerCoin),成为第一个通过PoS机制来实现区块链共识算法的加密数字货币;2013年,发布质数币(Primecoin),旨在通过计算去发掘由大量质数组成的质数链;2014年,点点币全球排名第三,仅次于比特币和莱特币。2016年底,Sunny King最后一次在比特币论坛更新,自此消失。2018年1月24日,隐匿1年后的Sunny King作为创始人,正式宣布推出VEE区块链开发平台,并担任首席架构师。

First, let’s take a look at Sunny’s personal experience.In 2011, he established a bitcoin research team with a focus on alternative bitcoin technology; In 2012, he came up with the concept of PoS for the first time and released Peercoin, the first crypto currency whose consensus algorithm was achieved by PoS mechanism; in 2013, he launched a second crypto product——Primecoin in the hope of identifying prime chain consisting of large quantities of primes by computation. In 2014, Primecoin reached the third place in the world on the basis of market cap, second only to Bitcoin and Litecoin. In late 2016, Sunny King updated blogs in the Bitcoin Forum for the last time before disappearing. After being off the radar for one year, Sunny King announced the blockchain development platform——VEE On January, 24, 2018, in which he acted as its founder and chief architect.

作为加密数字货币领域元老级开发者,同中本聪一样,Sunny King是这个行业里“隐藏在面具之后”另一位重磅神秘人物。快两年杳无音讯后,今年他能重返江湖,这让很多人翘首以待,我的很多投资界和媒体界的同行都在找他。

As a senior developer in the world of crypto currency, Sunny King, like Satoshi himself, is another mysterious and influential person behind his mask. It's been nearly two years since your last disappearance. Now Sunny are back, which excited many people, since a lot of my friends from investment and media industry are looking for him.


Consensus mechanism is like the soul of blockchain and plays the role of laws in a country to keep the system functional. The PoS Sunny created has become one of the most popular consensus mechanisms in the blockchain community and still has a profound influence on the whole industry.

很荣幸今晚邀请Sunny King参与火星财经的“王峰十问”。我和Sunny从未谋面,今天也是我俩第一次进行线上互动交流。期待今晚的对话,能够更真实地还原Sunny King,让更多人了解神秘面具背后的他。

It’s an honor to have Sunny King with us. We’ve never met before, so this is the first time we interact and communicate online with each other. I expect our dialogue will show a more real version of Sunny and Let more people know about him behind the mysterious mask.


Now, let’s get started. 


王峰:在区块链领域,您有一个响当当的个人标签:PoS机制发明人(Prove of Stake,股权证明机制)。PoS最早由您在2012年提出,并在Peercoin项目实现了“首秀”,引起业内极大关注。当时《比特币杂志》的一位撰稿人评价您是“唯一一个最具原创精神的数字货币开发者”,这位撰稿人就是刚满18岁的太坊创始人Vitalik,一年以后,他的以太坊白皮书问世。


In the field of Blockchain, you are famous for being called the creator of POS, the Prove of Stake which was first brought forward by you in 2012 and made its debut through the Peercoin program, causing wide attention in the industry.  An editor with the Bitcoin Magazine called you the only digital currency developer with the most original spirit. This editor was Vitalik Buterin, the young founder of Ethereum the white paper of which was published one year later.


Six years later, blockchain professionals now have commanded a general knowledge of PoS. On Ten Questions with Fred Wang today,would you mind explaining the mechanism of PoS in a simpler way for us? Satoshi Nakamoto opened a world of distributed ledger, while Buterin branched off and grew blockchain through smart contracts. As far as I am concerned, you are the designer of the rules applied to Blockchain space. Seeing PoW being defective made you sought reform or revolution. So, what inspired you to come up with the PoS mechanism?  

Sunny King:通俗地说,一个弱中心化的共识系统需要一个可靠的机制来决定赋予某一个参与者的决策决定权多大权重。最朴素的做法是给每一个参与者完全相同的权重,就像现实生活中的民主选举,但是一旦我们考虑到互联网是一个开放并且匿名的系统,这样的系统很容易被一些伪造的账号/ID破坏。这就像是一些赝品,对于其他所有真诚的参与者都是非常不公平的。

OK, in easy to understand terms, a distributed consensus system needs to have a reliable mechanism to determine how much weight to give to a certain participant for the decision making power.the naive way is to give everyone equal weight, like in a democratic election,but once you consider an open system and the anonymous nature on the Internet, such system can be easily sabotaged through the faking of a lot of identities.This resembles counterfeiting, which is unfair to all the other honest participants. 


PoW Consensus was the first system to give a reliable measure, so one’s weight is proportional to a certain computation one did. This certain computation can be verified and measured easily by everyone, thus called ‘provable work’, in that you can easily prove to everyone else how much the work was. The computation can also practically scale to take arbitrarily large amount of computation.

对比PoW, PoS共识提倡使用系统内的一个价值代币来度量应该赋予某个参与者决策权的权重值。因此,一个参与者所拥有的代币数量,也叫作权益,可以向其他参与者证明自己实际的贡献量。一旦系统开始运行,就不可能任意创建或者使用快捷方式代币。代币的创建还必须遵循一个被称为协议的预设规则,就像比特币协议如何调节比特币的创建一样。

In comparison, PoS Consensus advocates using a value token inside the system as the proportional measure of weight assigned to a participant’s decision making power. So the amount of the token owned, called stake, proves to everyone else one’s serious contribution. The token cannot be created arbitrarily or with shortcut, once the system begins operation. The creation of the token must also follow a pre-set rules called protocol just like how Bitcoin protocol regulates the creation of bitcoin. 

王峰:与中本聪发明的另一大主流共识机制PoW(Proof of Work,工作量证明)相比,PoS在一定程度上缩短了共识的达成时间,也不再需要消耗大量能源挖矿,而且更难进行51%攻击。但是,PoS机制也有一些问题,比如它容易出现双重支付攻击。早期持币者可能会成为后来者参与的障碍,极端者则可能出现严重的“贫富差距”和依附其上的过度中心化。

OK., Compared with PoW, the other popular consensus mechanism, PoS shortens the time needed to reach a consensus, also lessens energy consumed to mine and increases the difficulty to conduct a 51% attack. However, PoS also has its own problems. For example, in a PoS-based blockchain system, double-spending becomes easier. Initial coin owners may cause obstacles for later participants, and in some extreme cases, wealth gap and over-centralization may occur.


On one hand, there is no doubt that both PoS and PoW have become the foundation of consensus mechanisms in the field of blockchain. On the other hand, the argument over which one is superior is constant, and I don’t know if there was any conclusion drawn. This reminds me of a phrase by Churchill, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” From the dialectical perspective, existence is reasonable and difference is existence. Could you please tell us your trade-offs when designing the PoS mechanism?


So far, every consensus mechanism can be traced from the governance system of existing human society. For instance, PoW can be understood as law of distribution according to work in a socialist system, while PoS is more like equity governance found in capitalism society. From the endless consensus mechanisms originated from PoW and PoS, we can see the reflections of our current government systems in the real world, such as the Parliamentary system in Great Britain, the Federation system in the US, the Confederation in EU and China's NPC system. How do you explain this phenomenon?


It’s almost certain that every type of government has flaws. For thousands of years, we have made great progress in terms of technology and engineering, but when it comes to creating rules and regulations, our innovative effort could only seen in the virtual internet games community management. Some people say the wisdom of mankind has not made much progress, do you agree with this point of view?  


PoW vs PoS

Sunny King:非常深刻的观察。我相信这或许反映了人类文明将进入到未来的虚拟经济中。你所提到的这些政治制度,我们曾经称之为意识形态。在过去的一个世纪,我们看到了不同意识形态之间的巨大斗争,而我们似乎缺乏在这种意识形态竞争中更合理、和平地合作的能力。因此,希望我们一起期许一个光明的未来,未来的虚拟世界可以提供更加和平以及公平的竞技场。

Very deep observation. I believe this is a possible reflection that human civilization will be projected into the future virtual economy. All the political systems you mentioned, we used to call them ideologies. The past century we have seen huge struggles between different ideologies, we seem to lack the ability to cooperate more reasonably and peacefully in this type of ideology competition. So let’s hope for the bright side that the future virtual world may provide a more peaceful and fair play ground.



Indeed, it may seem so, especially for the Chinese, the ancient wisdom and work still amazes and perplexes the world. But we did make some progress, we have a less costly and violent path to explore now. From the virtual economy point of view, everything is orders of magnitude easier to built, and experiment, not just the cities and cultures, but also the governance systems or political systems.   



According to the data from the Analysis Report of Global Major Public Chain Projects by Stamp Capital, by the end of July 2018, among global Top 50 public chain projects based on their market value, 25% use DPos, for example EOS and QTUMl; Projects that adopt PoW and PoS account for 18.75% each, tied as second place, their respective representatives are Ethereum and ADA. DPoS, PoW and PoS account for an accumulative of more than 60%, representing three major consensus mechanisms in the current market. Besides, other mechanisms such as DBFT、PBFT、VBFT、LFT、PoW and PoS hybrids are also coming to scene. The current scenario can be described as “a contention of hundreds of competitors”(百家争鸣), What do you think of this current situation?

PoS对区块链共识机制发展产生了深远影响,出现了很多 PoS 的衍生版本,其中以DPoS为最主要的代表。DPoS(Delegated Proof of Stake),即委任权益证明,指的是让每一个持币者都可以进行投票,由此产生一定数量的代表 ,或者理解为一定数量的节点或矿池,他们彼此之间的权利是完全相等的。

PoS brings profound influence on the development of Consensus mechanism since its emergence, a lot of derivatives have been developed, of which the DPoS is a typical example. DPoS (Delegated Proof of Stake) indicates that every owner can vote to generate a quantity of representatives or a quantity of nodes and mining pools, and each of them share the same rights.


For example, if we use China’s NPC system to understand DPoS’s consensus mechanism, we will find that representatives will be removed when they can no longer honor their responsibilities and the network will vote for new delegates to replace them. In your opinion, is DPoS an improved version of PoS or the other way around? If someone proposed DPoS instead of PoS when you designed the Peercoin, would you support it?

Sunny King:公平竞争可能是赋予自由市场活力的原因。所以我当然会提倡更多的竞争和可能性。这对于算法来说也是好的,这是技术如何向前发展的原因。曾经有许多人希望一个统治系统能够结束其他全部的系统,但我想现在更明显的是它不会发生。

Fair competition is probably what gives the free market its vitality. So of course I would advocate more competition and possibilities. For algorithms it is also good, that’s how technology moves forward. It used to be that many people wish a single dominant system to be all end all, but I guess it is now more apparent that it is not going to.

从我们的角度来看,这是这个技术的自然演变。它曾经被称为“冷铸造”,所以从Peercoin被创造的第一天以来就一直在被讨论和探索。 PoS和DPoS之间存在重大差异,但主要要点仍然是PoS,即权益量决定了决策权的权重值。所以我不知道将它与中国的人大代表制度进行比较是否准确,中国的人大代表制度更像是一种民主,而DPoS更像是公司治理,股东(币权所有者)可以投票给高管(铸币节点)。

From our point of view it’s a natual evolution of the technology. It used to be called ‘cold minting’, so it’s been discussed and explored since Peercoin’s very early days. There are major differences between PoS and DPoS, but the main gist is still PoS, that stake amount determines the weight of the decision making power. So I don’t know if it’s accurate to compare it with the NPC of China, which is more like a democracy, rather it’s more like company governance, that shareholders (stake holders) can vote out the executives (minter).


There are still pros and cons. But for a performance oriented system I would favor SPoS, which can be regarded as our version of DPoS.



EOS, a typical program that goes with DPoS, is hoped to become a representative of Public Chain 3.0 following Bitcoin and Ethereum. However, the present development suggest otherwise. How do you think of the future for EOS? The coincidence has it that both of you and BM have three prior experiences with startups. Your startups include Peercoin,Primecoin and VEE which we will talk about later, while BM’s startups include BitShare, Steemit and EOS. Do you think you and he are the same kind of person?

Sunny King:我从BitShare时代以来就认识BM了,但没有太多机会与他互动。他的三个项目都有非常有意思的目标,所以显然他可能位于最有能力和最有原创性的加密货币设计师之列。

I had known BM since his BitShare days, but did not have much opportunity to interact with him. His three projects all have very interesting goals, so obviously he is probably among the most capable and original designers of cryptos.


王峰:早在2013年,Vitalik Buterin还是《比特币杂志》首席撰稿人时,他就和您有过交流并对您大加赞赏,称您是“竞争币开发者的鼻祖”。Vitalik也自诩是质数币的粉丝,甚至公开表示,质数币为他带去了灵感。可是,为什么Vitalik并没有直接选用PoS机制做为以太坊基础的共识算法?

Back in 2013 when Vitalik Buterin was still the chief editor with Bitcoin Magazine, he spoke with you and gave you very high remarks by calling you “the originator of altcoins”.  Buterin revealed that he is a fan of primecoin and it is an inspiration for him. However, why didn’t he choose PoS as the consensus algorism of Ethereum?

Sunny King:在2013年,Peercoin的PoS技术仍未被大家深入掌握。PoS当时是一种较比特币更复杂更改难掌握的技术。当时不太被认可,这是我能想到的一些原因。还有人说Vitalik更喜欢Primecoin的共识机制。但也可以理解,Vitalik当时的决定可能是项目组的集体意见。

Sunny King:In 2013, Peercoin’s PoS technology is still not well understood. It’s more complex to master than Bitcoin’s technology, and less agreed upon, that’s some of the reasons I can think of. It’s also said that Vitalik favored Primecoin Consensus. But it’s understandable that it’s probably a project group decision of what to use.  


Media reports that couple of days ago, in an Ethereum Developers Conference, Vitalik Buterin announced that Ethereum 2.0 will adopt a new consensus mechanism Casper in 2019. People who are familiar with the history of Ethereum would know that there are four stages in the development of Ethereum, the first three of which use PoW while the last will choose PoS called “Casper”, adding punishment mechanism and choosing validator from billing nodes.

“我则倾向于混合PoS,区块仍通过PoW挖出,但区块的最终确定通过PoS完成。”Vitalik在Twitter上这样说。有关对Casper的解释,Vitalik上月连续发了70多条推文。如果我说Casper=Casper PoS,你会同意吗?

Buterin twitted,“in my opinion, I intend to favor PoS hybrid,which indicates that blocks are mined through PoW, but the final verification is done through PoS.”He twitted 70 times about Casper in the past month. If I say Casper is equivalent to Casper PoS, would you agree with me?


Sunny King:是的,看到Vitalik谈论PoS我很开心,这就像是在2013年的美好时光。从那时起他的表现令人惊讶。

Yeah I am always happy to see Vitalik talking about PoS, it’s like the good old days in 2013. It’s amazing what he did since then.


ETH price has been constantly falling since the beginning of this year. From its peak at $1506, the second largest crypto currency has plummeted by 85.4% , closed at $220 on September 16th. What do you think are the reasons for these major falls of ETH? With its market trend and the new threats from new generation of public chain, do you think Ethereum can still hold its dominant position in this field?  

Sunny King:这是加密货币的必经之路,哈哈。我在2011年第一次接触比特币,当时比特币在40美元跌到2美元。所以作为开发人员,这是正常的。市场有自己的一套规律,我不是市场方面的专家。我只能尽力看到更远的未来。

It’s part of the crypto experience haha. My first introduction to Bitcoin in 2011 takes me from a $40 high to $2 low. So as a developer it’s normal. The market has its own set of laws, I am not a specialist in that. I can only try my best to see farther into the long term future.



Let’s talk about the first crypto currency you developed based on PoS——Peercoin(PPC).  I noticed that Peercoin use PoW to mine and distribute currencies to guarantee fairness. In its later process, PoS come in to make owning 51% of currency harder, thus preventing 51% attack and keeping the network run safely. Such a delicate design was truly a milestone in the field of blockchain.


Since its emergence, Peercoin is ranked between the third place and the fourth place for consecutive years in terms of market value, which made it a popular product and attract a number of followers. However, as of 13, Sep, it had slipped to the 131 place with exchange volume shrinking significantly, and a lot of exchanges has removed it from their listing. What happened to the once-glorious program? Have you ever made a review? Some internet users repealed that the biggest problem of Peercoin is that its original miners made great profits which lead people to suspect the presence of pre-mining fallouts. Is that true? Will you please make a formal reply to these questions?

Sunny King:这当然是大错特错的谣言。2012年Peercoin是最符合道德规范的加密货币之一。它至少提前一周预告,并且它的挖掘与比特币兼容,因此每个有兴趣参与采矿的人都有机会从一开始就加入。

That’s of course very wrong rumor. Peercoin was among the most ethically released crypto in 2012. It was preannounced a week in advance at least, and the mining was compatible to Bitcoin, so everyone interested in participating in its mining had the opportunity to join in from the beginning.


Peercoin chose to keep the PoW component to distribute coins fairly, even though it could go to a more stock-like issuance model known as ICO later on. As to block minting amount, it’s a smooth curve designed to lower inflation rate, just like Bitcoin also lowers inflation by halving it every four years. In the early years of Peercoin’s success certain crypto fans resorted to smear campaign against Peercoin’s reputation due to their insecurity, this was probably a leftover effect from that period.

这是一个误解,Peercoin'最初'是PoW,然后是PoS。 Peercoin的共识是一开始就是纯粹的PoS,从第一天就是这么设计的。 PoW被保留用来保证币的发行对公众来说尽可能的公平,就像比特币一样,如果不是更好的话。 Peercoin的衰落更多地与加密货币世界的竞争格局有关。它是一个相对松散组织的社区项目,没有投资支持。因此缺乏进一步开发的资源,更不用说任何市场营销了。

It’s a misunderstanding that Peercoin was ‘initially’ PoW, then PoS. Peercoin’s consensus was pure PoS in the beginning, designed for its first day. PoW was kept so the issuance can be as fair as possible to the public, just like Bitcoin if not better. Peercoin’s fall has more to do with the competition landscape of the crypto world. It was run as a loosely organized community project, with no backing of investment. So it lacked resources to do further development, not to mention any marketing. 



Riemann hypothesis

Later on July 2013, you and your team developed Primecoin, a crypto currency which provides security through searching primes. The presence of primes and its distributing laws are considered weird phenomenon in the field of traditional Math’s number theory. Goldbach conjecture and Riemann hypothesis are all too difficult to be resolved today. What makes you choose the concept of primes when designing a crypto currency?

Sunny King:Primecoin实际上是我自己创造的作品,而不是一个团队的成果。我知道在2013年人们对PoS有很大的怀疑,所以我在想是否有其他替代方案,仍让使用PoW和消耗能源,但是令计算更有价值?素数因其在数学中长期突出的地位而成为考虑的一个自然的目标。实际上素数是密码学的准备工作,如果您对素数不太了解,那么您将无法学习密码学。

Primecoin was actually my own creation, not a team effort. I know back in 2013 people had great deal of doubts in PoS, so I was wondering if there could be an alternative, still doing PoW and consuming energy, but with more meaningful computation? Prime number is a natural target of consideration due to its long standing prominence in mathematics. In fact prime number is prep work for cryptography. If you don’t know much about prime numbers, then you are going to have trouble studying cryptography. 


To be honest, it’s truly a talent work. But I wonder if you had a spirit of mischief in your mind at the time? To find out the distributing laws of primes, Riemann wrote a proof of series summation in complex analytic function, which has been researched by many mathematicians but to no avail. I didn’t expect an expert from digital currency play it so well. What are your comments to that?

Sunny King:这对我来说是一个挑战,我花了三月份一大半的时间才意识到素数搜索的真正潜力,它可以完全取代hashcash。我欣喜若狂!你知道,对于大多数人来说,像黎曼猜想这样的问题 - 实际上是一个关于素数分布的理论 - 远远超出了思维的范围,对于我,甚至大多数数学家来说,也是这样,只有极少数绝顶聪明的人才可能。所以我非常开心能够尽我所能做点什么来帮助这个问题。

It was a challenge for me, it took a better part of that March for me to realize the true potential of prime searching, that it could replace hashcash entirely. I was ecstatic! You know for most people problems like Riemann hypothesis - which is actually a theory about prime number distribution - are far beyond mind’s reach, it’s the same for me, or even most mathematicians, only maybe except for a very very few top minds. So I am very happy to be able to do something, to help with what I can.


According to public files, since its issuing, Primecoin identified primes 16 times bigger than those based on two-way double-chain algorism in the first months. In spite of its good reputation, its marketing was not very well. Its latest circulating volume is close to the level of 2013, but its ranking has fallen to 168, slipped out of Top 5 in 2013, indicating it is undergoing a downside trend. What exactly happened to Primecoin? 

Sunny King:与Peercoin可能是一回事。公平地说,它更多地反映了行业竞争格局的变化。

It’s probably the same thing with Peercoin. To be fair, it’s more of a reflection of the change of competition landscape in the industry.


Quite a few people have a problem with the waterloo of Peercoin and Primecoin. Some even call you the most notorious deserter in the last round of bear market. As the founder of Peercoin and Primecoin, why did you choose to get away in the middle of developing? After leaving, what kind of business did you focus on?

Sunny King:我没有放弃加密货币。我之前一直在维护Peercoin和Primecoin并回应社区。虽然人们必须要理解它更多的是关于团队建设,但文明是为了实现梦想而共同努力。我无法独自完成这一切。因此,对于VEE项目,这次我们肯定要从中吸取一些教训。

I did not desert crypto. I kept maintaining Peercoin and Primecoin and respond to community. Although one must understand it’s more about team building, civilization is about working together to achieve a dream. I cannot do it all alone. So for Project VEE this time we definitely should learn some lessons from before.


Media reports say that Vittorini, a once assistant of yours, said King prefer to resolve technological issues rather than deal with marketing or communication issues which is, from his perspective, is your biggest failure.  Technology, marketing and Communication, which one of them is more important to you? Since Peercoin and Primecoin share a lot of similarities, have them inspired you to do some deeper thinking?  

Sunny King:我们当然也会考虑这些问题。营销和沟通也同样重要,我当然同意。这是我经常向VEE团队强调的事情。

We also consider these questions of course. Marketing and communication is as important, I certainly agree. This is something I often stress to the VEE team.


王峰:前不久,您宣布将在项目VEE中,引入全新的共识机制“超级节点PoS”(supernode proof-of-stake,简称为“SPoS”)。根据您此前的解释,SPoS有点类似DPoS,但会简化区块链的开发和维护。您发明SPoS机制的初衷是?SPoS的灵感来自于哪里?社区里有人质疑,SPoS与DPoS相比,并没有提供新的实质性解决方案。您需要做个回应吗?

Not long ago, you announced that VEE would adopt a full-new consensus mechanism called supernode proof-of-stake(SPoS). According to your explanation, SPoS is similar to DPoS but can reduce the development and maintenance work to a much degree. What’s your original purpose of inventing SPoS? Where does your inspiration come from? Some community members doubt that SPoS doesn’t provide effective solutions compared with DPoS, do you need to respond to these voices? 

Sunny King:它与DPoS类似,因为在我们看来,这种形态是PoS共识技术的自然演变,所以总体方向就在那里。与EOS的DPoS设计相比,我认为SPoS更加优雅,具有PoS概念的简单和纯粹。

It’s similar to DPoS because in our view it’s a natural evolution of the PoS Consensus technology, so the general direction was there. Compared to EOS design of DPoS, I think SPoS is more beautiful, with simplicity and purity of PoS concept.


Besides, SPoS need to operate on special hardware which are similar to ASIC mining machines but cost less power. Why did SPoS consider the adoption of hardware support?

Sunny King:这是一个误解,没有ASIC。 SPoS超级节点只是具有更好硬件资源的常规服务器。系统为满足系统性能要求提供了激励。

This is a misunderstanding. There is no ASIC. SPoS supernodes are just regular servers with better hardware resource. The system provides incentive for keeping up with system performance requirements.

王峰:我登陆VEE的官网,发现官网对VEE的定义是“第五代比特币”(The Fifth Generation of Bitcoin),VEE使用了新的PoS机制,可为什么选择拿PoW机制的比特币做对比?我们又该如何理解“第五代”这个概念?

When I log In VEE’s official site, I find that the definition of VEE is “the fifth generation of Bitcoin. Since VEE uses new PoS mechanism, why does your company choose to compare it with bitcoin of PoW? How are we supposed to understand the concept of “the fifth generation”?

Sunny King:可以理解为下一代,超越第3代。这来自我们的市场策略,我认为这意味着加密货币或加密平台的创建,但是说比特币可以满足更多人的需求。

It can be understood as next generation, the generation beyond the 3rd. It’s from our marketing and I think it means generation of cryptocurrency or crypto platform, but saying Bitcoin cater to more people I guess.

王峰:对于VEE项目,很多人提出了质疑,但最让我印象深刻的,是来自点点币社区和团队的反对声音。我了解到,点点币社区的一些成员认为,您并没有详细和整个社区进行沟通,仅仅只是在论坛上发帖子是远远不够的,甚至,点点币团队互相提醒VEE信息不透明,不要投资这个项目。以点点币品牌经理Randy Vittorini为代表的另外一些人还警告,VEE项目不过是借您的名声来作市场营销。为什么您的新项目VEE却没有得到您过去创始项目的团队和社区成员的支持?他们对您有什么误解吗?在今天火星财经的“王峰十问”,您都可以做个说明或澄清。

A lot of people has raised their doubts on VEE. The most impressive one, in my opinion, is the opposite voices from Peercoin community and development team.  Some community members think that you didn’t communicate with the whole community in detail and posting message in the forum is far from being desired. What makes the scenario even worse is that development team members warned each other of the Opacity and tried to convince others not to invest in it. Some people led by Randy Vittorini even warned that VEE is nothing but a marketing hype which made use of your reputation. Why didn’t VEE program receive support from the founding team and community members? Maybe you can clarify the misconception if any through Ten Questions with Fred Wang today.

Sunny King:Peercoin建立了自己的基金会,并在今年改进了组织,所以他们认为这个是一个独立的项目是很正常的。我仍然与Peercoin和Primecoin社区保持良好的关系并扮演好我在团队中的角色。我很高兴Peercoin和Primecoin现在似乎都有更好的组织和发展路线图,所以希望这可以在一定程度上缓解这两个项目看起来没有成功或被放弃的情绪。

Peercoin established its own foundation and improved the organization this year, so it’s normal that they view the project as separate. I still keep a good relationship with both Peercoin and Primecoin community and serve my role. I am very happy that both Peercoin and Primecoin seem to have better organization and development roadmap now, so hopefully that would somewhat alleviate the sentiment that these two projects are not successful or abandoned.






some famous representatives figures of Austrian School

Some professionals believed that blockchain was first initiated by a group of Austrian School and IT participants, and considered it a social experiment conducted by the group of elites including developers, hackers, math genius, coding experts and other talented personnels.

You once said that you admired Austrian School very much. I sorted out some famous representatives figures including Carl Menger, Promisel and Hayek. Some of their published points include value is subjective and that is important in terms of satisfaction of substance to people. Value is a directly outcome of scarcity and efficiency.  The amount of value is determined by the amount of marginal utility and has nothing to do with social labor.

Sunny King:我认为我们已经想到的一件事是钱可以完全是虚拟的,起初它不一定是商品。从这个意义上讲,货币使用本身也是有价值的。

I think one thing we have figured out is that money can be completely virtual, it needs not be a commodity at first. In that sense monetary utility is also value by itself.



According to my knowledge, Austrian school economists attach great importance on a free market with individualism and subjectivism being core elements. However, where there are people, there are schemes and tricks. A lot of people dive into the blockchain industry to seek wealth overnight, which explains the reason why speculating activities are so popular in this industry, making a lot of market makers thrive on cheating on others.

It seems that blockchain highlight the vulnerabilities of human nature when it is designed to build a Utopian society in the name of freedom. How does blockchain should strike a balance between respecting human’s subjective initiative and limit human’s weakness? In this progress, what challenges will we face?

Sunny King:我认为我已经超越了必须遵从特定的意识形态或理论。更重要的是我们有选择,所以我们可以为自己体验世界,并以我们的方式实现错误。如果牺牲一些自由可以创造一个更美好的社会,你会加入这样的社会吗?所以,如果没有强迫你,我不明白为什么它不能存在。根据一些美国创始人的说法,这就是政府可以合法地成立的方式。我认为这对于每个人来说都有点匪夷所思,所以我觉得,放弃冷战时期的心态,让不同意识形态之间更加文明的竞争,对世界来说更为重要。另一方面,允许加密货币实验在世界上留有一席之地可能也符合人类的最佳利益。

I think I have grown beyond having to subscribe to a specific ideology or theory. The more important thing is that we have choices, so we can experience the world for ourselves and realize the errors in our ways. If sacrificing some freedom makes a better society, will you join such society? So if it is not forced upon you, I don’t see why it cannot exist. According to some US founding fathers, it was how governments can be legitimately founded for. These are probably tough questions for everyone I think. So I think it’s more important for the world to abandon the cold war era mentality and allow for more civilized competition between different ideologies. On the other hand, it’s probably also in humanity’s best interest to allow the crypto experiment to keep its place in the world.

王峰:今年4月份,经济学家Saifedean Ammous在其出版的《比特币标准(The Bitcoin Standard)》一书中,试图论证:比特币的根源在于奥地利经济学原理。您是否也支持这一观点?


《The Bitcoin Standard》

In April, the economist Saifedean Ammous tried to confirm that bitcoin was an outcome of Principles of Austrian Economics in his book “The Bitcoin Standard”, do you agree with him?

Sunny King:我能说的是,我认为Satoshi绝对是一种特殊的金甲虫,他希望货币供应上限!我从不知道任何一个希望停止采金业奥地利学派经济学家。但我尊重Satoshi的意见,无论如何我们有足够高的通货膨胀货币,所以为什么不尝试点别的呢?

What I can say is that, I think Satoshi was definitely a special kind of gold bug, he wanted the money supply capped! I don’t know of any Austrian School economist who wants gold mining stopped. But I respect Satoshi’s opinion, anyhow we have enough high inflation currencies, so why not try something else?


王峰:上周五,获得纽约金融服务部(NYDFS)批准的Gemini Dollar(GUSD)在全球首发,GUSD是基于以太坊区块链的数字货币,每个GUSD由1美元资产支撑。受监管的GUSD等稳定币,成为了数字货币领域新入场的搅局者。基于GUSD的“政府监管背景”,它的出现会对一直饱受着内幕交易和财务状况不透明质疑的USDT带来多大的冲击?进而,GUSD的出现,能否推动更多新用户的入场?火币创始人李林发朋友圈:稳定币/法定数字货币才是区块链行业最重要的基础设施。您是否同意这种说法?

On Friday, the Gemini Dollar (GUSD), which approved by the New York Financial Services Department (NYDFS), was launched worldwide. The Gemini dollar is a cryptographic token built on the Ethereum Network according to the ERC20 standard for tokens, and has a 1:1 beg with U.S dollar. The Gemini Dollar, whcih is the world’s first regulated stablecoin, has brought huge impact to the cryptocurrency field. Based on the “government regulatory background” of GUSD, how much impact will it have on USDT, which has been questioned by insider trading and financial opacity? Furthermore, can the emergence of GUSD significantly increase new investors? Lin Li, the founder of Huobi Global, expressed in a social media network that stablecoin or legal digital currency is the most important infrastructure in the blockchain industry. Do you agree with him?

Sunny King:我认为此事有点夸大。美国曾有一段历史,当时所有银行都可以发行自己的纸质货币。所以现今的情况也类似,只是数字化的形式。真正重要的事实美国政府正在不断开放允许发币和加密货币自由兑换,而这对于VEE所倡导的未来数字经济时代至关重要。

I think it’s a bit exaggerated. US had a period in history where every bank can issue its own banknote (paper money). So this is something similar, but in a digital twist. What’s really important is that the government is more open to allow the free exchange between fiat and crypto, which is crucial to the prosperity of future virtual economy. 


The launch of the GUSD also means that the digital dollar has taken a big step toward compliance. In association, since the beginning of the year, the currency of many countries has been seriously devalued. For example, Argentina's peso depreciated by more than 50%, Turkey's lira depreciated by 40%, Brazil's Real was depreciated by 20%, and South Africa's rand was depreciated by 16%. If people in these countries consider using GUSD, they may be immune to the devastating depreciation of their currencies. If the digital USD represented by GUSD gets wider recognition, what is the significance of the national border?

Sunny King:是的,这将致使我们更容易获得美元等值资产。但同样的,美元也并不一定会永远强势,法币的价值与其发行国的经济状况息息相关。但我个人仍然倾向在个人风险能力承受范围内持有一些数字货币,来对冲法币的恶性通胀风险。

Yes it will make it easier to obtain USD equivalent assets. But USD may also be not strong forever. The value of fiat is really linked to the issuing country’s prosperity. I personally still favor getting at least some crypto to hedge one’s fiat hyperinflation risks, but of course within one’s own risk tolerance.


Insiders believe that from a policy and strategic perspective, the United States is taking advantage of this opportunity to introduce digital dollars into the cryptocurrency market and re-plan the global strategy of the dollar. Do you think that the legalization of GUSD really implies the US conspiracy?  The blockchain has moved from the parallel world pioneered by BTC to the existing world of legal currency. In addition, US government finally supports USD backed stablecoin, how much impact does this have on global financial markets? 

Sunny King:我不知道,可能吧。但我认为全球各国政府仍谨慎对待加密货币的潜力。我不清楚GUSD的细节,但稳定币已有很长历史了,比如此前的BitShares, Nubits。你会有多相信GUSD呢?

I don’t know, maybe. But I think governments are still wary of the potential of crypto. I don’t know the details of GUSD, but stable token had quite a bit history already, BitShares, Nubits. How much trust can you put into the peg of GUSD?


Will the USD pegged stablecoin gradually replace the position of Bitcoin?

Sunny King:当然我不相信此事。发币固然有其自己的地位,但比特币打开的是强健的个人财产的新世界。

Of course I don’t believe so. Fiat money certainly has its place, but Bitcoin opened up new world of strong private property.



Dr. Feng Xiao, Chairman of the Board for Wanxiang Blockchain Labs, expresses at a recent public speech that technologies such as new sidechain, sub-chain, cross-chain, layering, fragmentation, partitioning will mature in 2019 and the main network will go online. This is considered a prerequisite for large-scale commercial application of blockchains. In your opinion, is 2019 a critical year for public chain technologies to mature? What are the indicators for a matured public chain technology?


Sunny King:或许吧,这也是VEE忙于加入这股趋势的原因。然而,我想这个行业将会保持进化,这项技术在未来依然有着巨大的发展空间。

Maybe, that’s why VEE has been busy positioning itself in this trend. However I think the industry will keep evolving, these technology have plenty of room to further develop in the coming years.

王峰:根据ONE.TOP LABS的数据,全球DApp总数已达1844个,日活跃用户数达15930人,总关注量突破20万人次。另据DAppradar网站信息,当前以太坊和EOS平台上活跃度靠前的DApp,基本属于去中心化交易所(DEX)以及游戏的范畴;其中,以太坊平台上活跃度最高的DApp为IDEX,其日活用户数为1942;EOS平台上最为活跃的DApp是EOS Knights,其日活用户数为886。您觉得是什么造成了DApp活跃度如此尴尬的窘境?落寞之后,DAPP将去往何方?

According to data from One Top Labs, the total number of DApps worldwide reached 1,844, and the number of daily active users reached a total of 15,930 users, while the total follow-ups exceeded 200,000 users. Furthermore, according to the information provided by the data website DAppradar, the current DApp on the Ethereum and EOS platforms are basically in the category of decentralized exchanges (DEX) and games. Among them, the most active DApp on Ethereum platform is IDEX, and the number of daily users is 1942. The most active DApp on EOS platform is EOS Knights, and the number of daily users is 886. What do you think is the reason for this awkward situation with such a low DApp activity? Where does DApp’s future lie?

Sunny King:我猜是我们被加密货币市场常见的高增长宠坏了。甚至加密货币市场都不可能哪年可以全年保持高位。

I guess we are probably spoiled by the speed of advancement in cryptos :) Even the market cannot be on a high all year any year 


From a more technical angle, what are the bottlenecks for large-scale commercial application of blockchain? Is it security, information protection, performance of trading, or reward system? How long are we from large-scale commercial application of blockchain? 

Sunny King:目前的瓶颈有很多,但我个人认为,相比于其他技术,其成本将是主要的障碍。那一天并不远了。

It’s many things, but I think the cost compared to other technology is probably the main hurdle. It’s getting close.


王峰:近日,有媒体报道,美国监管机构正式批准了区块链技术服务公司BitGo开展加密资产托管服务,其业务面向机构客户。这是美国本土第一个拿到国家监管部门的合规牌照,因此备受业界关注。比特币亿万富翁Mike Novogratz此前就曾指出,托管业务带来的机构资金,或将能让比特币重现昔日的辉煌。BitGo数字货币托管业务的开展,会催生新一轮牛市的出现吗?

Just recently, blockchain security startup BitGo has received regulatory approval to offer crypto asset custody service, which is aimed at the growing demand of institutional customers. BitGo has since became center of attention for it’s the first and only regulated custody service available on the market offering exclusively for digital asset storage. Billionaire bitcoin bull Mike Novogratz has previously predicted that the institutional funds brought by the custody business may enable Bitcoin to regain its former glory. Will BitGo’s custody service development reignite hope for the return of a bull market?

Sunny King:在加密货币世界,一切皆有可能。至今我都还记得2011年年末比特币的低谷。所以这事谁也不好说。虽然此事是一个加密货币进入社会高阶财富阶层的信号。我们拭目以待。

In the crypto I guess anything is possible. I still remember the year end low of Bitcoin in 2011. So who knows. Though it does signal a move of crypto into the higher wealth hierarchy. Who knows, we shall see.

王峰:9月8日,V神在接受彭博社采访时,提到“区块链行业爆炸式增长将难以为继”的观点,随后遭到币安创始人赵长鹏的回怼,V神做了进一步回应:“增长是会有的,但1000倍的空间可以说很难有了。因为数字货币市值再翻1000倍的话,就达到200万亿美元,这几乎是全球现有财富的70%。”赵长鹏继续予以还击:“我仍然坚持,数字货币市场会增长 1000倍甚至更多。数字货币达到美元所影响的市场规模时,相当于增长了1000倍;加密数字货币的衍生品工具市场会更大。”


On September 8th, Ethereum Founder Vitalik Buterin mentioned that “the exponential growth of blockchain industry will not sustain” during his Bloomberg interview. Buterin clarified further after Founder and CEO of Binance Changpeng Zhao twitted against his previous point: “I never said that there is ‘no room for growth’ in the crypto ecosystem. I said there is no room for ‘1000x price increases’. A 1000x price increase from today means $200T in crypto, or ~an entire 70% of today’s global wealth being in crypto.” Zhao later responded: “I still believe that the cryptocurrency ecosystem will reach or even exceed 1000x price increase. When the cryptocurrency reaches the market size affected by US dollars, it is equivalent to 1000x increase. Furthermore, the scope of application and the derivatives application of cryptocurrency will be much larger.”

Whose side will you take, Buterin or Zhao? What is the scale of cryptocurrency do you predict? Is there really “no room” for the exponential growth of cryptocurrency? 

Sunny King:长期来看,我认为可能性是有的。如果对法币来看,1000倍有可能,也许10年后法币自身都通胀5倍了。加密货币并不需要膨胀到当前全球财富的70%那么高。在VEE,我们曾提到过未来的数字经济可能会是社会主流。它占到20%的全球经济,我觉得长线看是仍然有可能的。去想象未来世界是什么样子着实很难,就像三十年前我们很难想到如今我们的生活是这样子的。30年前,你能想象到现在中国是如此吗?

Longer term, I think the possibility is always there. 1000x if measured against fiat, who knows, maybe next decade fiat could inflate 5x by itself. So it does not necessarily need to reach 70% of current world wealth. We mentioned that future virtual economy could become significant. Say 20% world economy, so I think long term it’s still possible. It’s hard to imagine the life of future world, just like 30 years ago it’s also hard to imagine the world today. Can you imagine today’s China 30 years ago?


People refer blockchain to the fourth technology revolution, and often of times use internet development to scale blockchain development. In Changpeng Zhao’s reply to Vitalik Buterin, he also used companies such as Google, Facebook, Aibnb and Uber’s developments as references. Do you think it’s reasonable to use technological revolution cycle to judge and predict blockchain? Internet is a system of centralization, but blockchain is decentralized. Between these two technologies, will they grow independently, one over another or together?

Sunny King:科技进化的周期现在越来越快。世界上有如此多高学历的人们一直在解决技术挑战性难题。从云、人工智能的发展就看得出来,越来越快。


The cycle seems evolving ever faster now. The world has so many more highly educated population to tackle on technical challenging problems. See the development of cloud, AI, it seems moving at ever faster paces.

But I do agree that centralized and decentralized system will coexist in parallel for the foreseeable future. Centralized systems still have its efficiency advantage. 


王峰:“比特币之父”中本聪的真实身份,一直扑朔迷离,和中本聪一样,Sunny King是您的笔名,您也从未在公开场合露面。同样是加密数字货币领域圈中的传奇匿名人物,您怎么看待神秘未知的中本聪?您打算和中本聪一样继续玩消失或者匿名吗?你们的世界我们确实不懂。

Founder of bitcoin, Satoshi Nakamoto ‘s real identity has remained a mystery. Very similar to Nakamoto, Sunny King is your pen name and you’ve never appeared publicly. Also as a legend and an anonymous figure in cryptocurrency space, what do you think of Satoshi Nakamoto? Do you plan on remaining anonymous? Common folks might not understand the world you are in.

Sunny King:中本聪可能是真正的“匿名人物”,而我的匿名只是因为目前的隐私考虑。

Satoshi maybe truly anonymous, for me it’s just for privacy reasons now.


In an interview in 2014, you spoke frankly the reason for anonymity was due to political factors. My understanding is that the current political environment has unforeseeable risks to you. However, after five years, many countries have shown positive attitude toward cryptocurrency. For example, in 2017, the Australian Securities Regulatory Commission opened policies for investors to buy shares in listed companies in Bitcoin last year. Venezuela became the first country in the world to issue legal digital currency by releasing a white paper on petroleum coins in February 2018. In August, Malta became the first nation to offer official government regulation and policies for blockchain and cryptocurrency. Do you think you will remain anonymous with an easier political environment? In what particular circumstance, will you take off the mask and face the public?

Sunny King:我知道大家都对此很好奇,但说真的我其实是和大家一样的普通人。

I know everyone has curiosity, but really I am just an ordinary person just like everyone else.

王峰:我留意到,您在2014 年接受《Let’s Talk Bitcoin》线上采访被问及喜欢什么食物时,您的回答是:中国点心怎么样?在比特币社群中,有人说您是北大数学系毕业的中国人?您的创始团队几乎是清一色北大毕业生,也让我相信这些猜想正确是大概率事件。

I’ve noticed during an online interview with Let’s Talk Bitcoin in 2014, you answered Chinese Dim Sum when asked what your favorite food was. In the bitcoin community, someone said you are Chinese and graduated with Math major from Beijing University? It’s a natural guess of probability since your founding team is composed mainly of graduates from Beijing University. 

Sunny King:其实有很多人知道我的身份。不过为何我们不保持一点乐趣呢?

Actually there are plenty people who knows my identity. But why not keep some fun still.

王峰:您网络头像是位漫画人物,它是日本游戏公司KONAMI 2002年发行的游戏《幻想水浒传3》的角色“炎之英雄”。游戏世界中,“炎之英雄”作为盗贼团的首领,从起初劫持向神圣帝国的贡品,返还民众,到后来对抗神圣帝国争取独立,直到神圣帝国退兵,而“炎之英雄”从此彻底消失。您使用“炎之英雄”网络头像的现实寓意是?


A  character of Genso Suikoden

Your network avatar is a comic character “Flame Champion” from the video game Suikoden III by a Japanese gaming company KONAMI. In the game, “Flame Champion” leads a group of bandits rob from the holy empire and return the wealth back to the commoners until he wins independency from fighting the empire and then disappears once for all. What is the real meaning behind using the comic character “Flame Champion” for your network avatar?

Sunny King:不知你信不信我,其实这是巧合。我当时不知道这个图片是什么,只是随手网上找来用的。不过现在我知道图片是来源于中国500年前的名著水浒传。有人说水浒传的作者用的也是笔名,所以你看,匿名的传统来源于中国的历史。


It’s actually a coincidence, I don’t know if you will believe me or not :) I wasn’t aware of what the picture was about, but somehow I picked it up on the Internet. It’s about a famous novel of China from probably 500 years ago, I get it now. Some speculated the author’s name is also his pen name, so you see, the anonymous tradition goes way back in the Chinese history 

I think what’s really important is that we keep an open mind, who knows what the technology development would lead humanity to, maybe it’s a much brighter future. It would be good enough that 500 years from now people could say that we did what we could to the best of our abilities, just like the author of the famous Chinese novel did.

王峰:聊了一晚上,我突然意识到一个很严重的问题,既然Sunny King从来没有露过真面目,我们怎么知道网络那头的你,真的是Sunny King本尊呢?你怎么证明你就是Sunny King呢?哈哈,这或许是个根本无解的问题。如今,区块链依靠去中心化、匿名性等特质,给了我们打开自由大门的一把金钥匙。我想,无论是PoS机制,还是SPoS机制,都蕴含了自由主义和精神,通过建立不同类型的信任网络以实现资源的最优配置。希望Sunny King这次携手VEE归来,带给我们更多可能,去探索区块链自由世界的未来。

After chatting for the entire night, I just realized a critical issue. If Sunny King never revealed his true identity, how do we know that the network avatar is you, the real Sunny King? How do you prove you are in fact the real Sunny King? I guess that question remains unsolved.

Nowadays, blockchain has provided us a key to the door of freedom with a variety of features including decentralization and anonymity. As far as I am concerned, freedom is the top priority for whatever mechanisms under discussion—whether they are PoS or SPoS, then comes the optimal allocation of resources.

王峰:最后,我想引用奥地利经济学派的先驱、经济学家Frédéric Bastiat(弗雷德里克·巴斯夏)曾经说过的一句话:“无论我们在讨论宗教、哲学、政治或经济;无论它是有关繁荣、道德、平等、正确、正义、进步;无论是从哪个科学方法加以研究,我最后都会达成以下结论:解决所有人类互动问题的答案,便是自由。”

Finally ,I’d like to conclude this show with a quote of Frédéric Bastiat, a pioneer of Austrian School of Economics and famous economist, ” It seems to me that this is theoretically right, for whatever the question under discussion — whether religious, philosophical, political, or economic; whether it concerns prosperity, morality, equality, right, justice, progress— at whatever point on the scientific horizon I begin my researches, I invariably reach this one conclusion: The solution to the problems of human relationships is to be found in liberty.”


Thank Sunny again for joining Ten Questions with Fred Wang. Thanks, every friend!


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